Present cycle question

crazycal1

the guys arent being alarmist mate, you defo need hcg for those meds.

einsteins mind was the key to all things...to understand more than to know.

www.extremenutrition.co.uk

robsta9

This is a part of a copy and paste, I can't remember who posted it on uk-muscle.co.uk but it was probably hackskii who is very knowledgeable on pct.


How to KEEP GAINS
This info I have gleaned from self-research, trail and error, from my endocrinologist, from SWALE and from training hundreds of clients over the years.

This is a longish post but many of you will greatly benefit from reading it so try to bare with my "blathering"

First of all I would like to stress that I and my endocrinologist do not believe one can keep gains above ones natural max, or that level of muscular development that can be held to without steroids. In other words, I think one will always shrink down to the size that can be held to with ones own T production.

In reality what usually happens is that many (not all) steroid users fall BELOW their natural max within months of discontinuing steroids for one or all of the following reasons poor HPTA recovery and or lack of knowledge in regard to what makes up proper steroid free training.

If HPTA recovery is not fairly rapid and complete then obviously one risks dropping BELOW ones natural max in time. If one does not know how to train effectively without steroids then one will rapidly over train and drop below natural max in time, not to mention the strong possibility of injury which also will hinder gains keeping.

You can, however, makes gains well above your natural max while on steroids and then with prudent use of ancillaries, and proper natural training, hold to your natural max well into ones 50's and perhaps early 60's.

As an estimate of natural max the average guy of average height( 5"9 or 10") and with average bone structure and genetically typical recuperative abilities (vast majority of men) can usually get to a lean 190-195 with a bench of 275-300, full squat of 375-400 and a dead lift of about 500 pounds without steroids.


ANCILLARIES....HCG


Dare I say that HCG use is more important than SERMS(nolva or clomid) for good HPTA recovery after a LONG cycle( 12 weeks or longer)
Personally I would use HCG during any cycle 8 weeks or longer...and if you are really paranoid and want the absolute most rapid HPTA recovery then use it during any cycle for next to zero testicular shrinkage.

Now you will recover HPTA without HGC, and fairly quickly if you truly have not suffered from much testicular atrophy, but not as rapidly as you could and that will cost you at least some gains.

HCG, human chorionic gonadotropin, is a hormone taken from placentas during pregnancy. It mimics the action of LH from the pituitary and stimulates testosterone production in the testes.

It is important to the male bodybuilder in that proper use of this hormone PREVENTS testicular atrophy caused by HPTA shut down from steroid use.

If the testes are shut down they will shrink, it's as simple as that. The degree of shrinkage depends upon the length of time "on" androgens. Some guys literally see their testes atrophy down to raisin size. NO ****. Others see modest shrinkage and a few say they see NO shrinkage. In the latter this is BS and has to due with poor pre-cycle assessment of testicular size. After all how many of us sit down before a cycle and really feel the true size of our balls.

NOTE: all steroids will shut you down 100% and at a very low dose, and that includes Primo and Anavar for you skeptics. As little as 100mg a week of testosterone administered exogenously in the form of injections will shut you down in as little as a few weeks.

HPTA RECOVERY

The hormones that drive the HPT axis (LH and GnRH) recover full potential quite quickly post cycle. The hypothalamus rapidly senses a low androgen level and pumps out GnRH and this tells the pituitary to release LH for testicular stimulation of T production trouble is if the nuts are small they simply cannot respond well to this stimulation. The testes take a fair amount of time to "get going" after a long sleep and as a result T levels post cycle can be low for months (if greatly atrophied). This obviously results in a rapid loss of gains, not to mention psychological issues such as depression as well as physical issues like fatigue.

* SO it is important for "optimal" gains keeping to try to begin HPTA recovery with full or nearly full sized testes.

HOW TO USE HCG

It is best to prevent testicular atrophy in the first place rather than trying to bringing the boys back to size after they have already atrophied.
With this in mind prudent use of HCG is DURING a cycle.

HCG can be taken either IM or sub Q in the fat and yes you can mix it with your oils.

Take it at 500 IU’s every 3rd or 4th day while on cycle.


Some use it post cycle at higher doses after their testes have already shrunk. This method works but I do not believe that it is the best way to use HCG. In this method one injects a high dose of HCG right near the end of a cycle but before clomid. The opening dose is often 3000iu's followed sometimes by another 3000 4 days later and then 1500iu's every 4th or 5th day and then the last shot is usually only 1000iu's total time three weeks.
No use taking clomid or nolvadex with the HCG since HCG will suppress the HPTA all by itself via the testosterone production it stimulates.

WARNING...if you use HCG at a high dose for too long you might desensitize the testes to LH so don't get carried away with it.

Canadianguy

wow very helpful. i thank you.

dont get me wrong cal i wasnt doubting anyones knowledge or advice, i just wasnt clear exaclty the difference between HCg and nolva.

as for now its far too late for me to get my hands on this for this cycle. its a definite that i will be looking into it for my next.

as for now since tribulus is easier to get a hold of, would u recommend i grab some of that asap?

Canadianguy

ive done alot of readiong and asking questions the past couple days. i hope no1 here sees me as alost cause. i take anyone heres advice seriously.

giving more information has helped others guide me inot the right direction.

apparently Test E which im taking is a longer ester and i should be taking it 2 weeks longer than my deca. so at this point i alrdy cut the deca april 21st and my last shot of testE was april 25th. so i was advised to do one more shot of testE coming up may 2nd and discontinue the nolva asap, then continue my PCT of nolvadex 2 weeks after my last shot. this gievs me time to grab HCG since i was also advised to start that when i started my other PCT.

as for other ways to help my body recover i was told ZMA ,6-oxo or even tribulus can help with libido.

i kinda feel like a jackass going on the advice of people i know in real life who have been at this sort of thing for years and are much older than i am. thought they knew what they were doing makes me glad i came here for assurance.

so is it safe to say its not too late for me? i really want a full recovery and no more of this nonsense i plan on going for blood tests in a couple months to c where im at before i even consider researching my next cycle.

anyways long post thanks to anyone who reads it and replies very much appreciated

Bodyworks

horrible advice. or maybe you misunderstood what someone told you. longer esters mean it stays active in the body for a longer duration, thus you must discontinue the drug earlier than expected. enanthate and decanote are similar in clearance times anyway so i'd stop them in the same week. having another shot of test E 2 weeks after the deca has stopped is not going to help. also, nolvadex has a short half life, hence the need for daily or every other day usage. nolvadex doesn't stop estrogen conversion in the body, instead it merely stops the estrogen from binding to specific receptors, thus preventing gyno. however, circulating estrogen levels are still very high, thus the reason you must use nolva right through to the end of your course if you're using aromatising androgens (which you are). stop taking it now, and the high level of circulating estrogen that has been building up will suddenly be able to bind to the receptors as there is no longer any nolvadex present in the body to stop this. general rule of thumb, once you start taking nolva on cycle, don't stop until the aromatising compounds have left your system.