winny for a footballer?

chaaalieboy

It's a little too late now, my stealth sachets just came in the mail today. I took my first EQ inj, but im reluctant to use the winny b/c u seem so adamantly opposed to using it.
I've talked to other runners/footballers that said this combo worked wonders for them, and they had no joint probs at all. Still, no one want to **** their knees up, so i think ill lay of workouts that are hard on the knees while i take the winny.

did i mention im really HUNGRY!!!

chaaalieboy

also, will HCG or proviron keep me from getting limp noodle?(hehe, they blocked the other word i wrote)

Ruggerbugger

HCG and proviron should both stop the limp noodle problem! Normally people take test with eq to keep them ready to perform but these work too. Proviron should harden you up too (but can speed up hair loss). I don't know anyone who has used HCG throughout a cycle.HCG is normally used for a boost for your tackle 6 weeks in and during PCT.

If winny is stacked with Eq, the Eq may help to offset the problems winny gives your joints (possibly, just speculating). If you do use it you can still do leg exercises. However, go for lower weight and higher reps. And definately don't do any plyometrics, that would be an excellent way to f--k up your knees on winny. Go slow and steady on the lifts, no bouncing at the bottom. Thats a definate no to the Clean and Jerk and other fast lifts.

Primobolan is another option for the future, it gives; decent clean size and strength gains, very low side effects and little water retention. At least thats what I'm seeing and I'm running Primo, Eq, Test (low dose of test though, there to compensate for drop in natural test production on cycle) and HGH right now. I think my goals are probably pretty similar to yours seeing as we are both primarily interested in our performance on a pitch and not getting injured.

I'm scared of winny because I know a couple of people who have injured themselves lifting in the gym while on Winny. They weren't olympic lifting or anything like that, just regular training. Now if experienced lifters can **** themselves up badly doing regular training it makes me wonder what would happen after a couple of hard hits in my case, or some hard tackles or getting hacked down from behind in your case. None of these guys were running Eq with it because they were cutting and Eq is crap for that becuase it makes you so hungry. Maybe Eq is enough to offset the damage from Winny, but I just don't know. For me, its just not worth the risk. JMO

razg

Testosterone is a metabolite of 1-Testosterone which is what you get from Boldenone (EQ). You shouldn't have **** problems, the conversion rate should leave your test in a similar range to endogenous.

I see no evidence of Deca increasing either type-I/II collagen synthesis or cross-linkage ability in any studies. It's joint friendly effects mainly come from supression of cellular immunity.

Similarly the joint supporting reputation of EQ seems to be brotelligence, as there is no published literature to support this.

Winny increases tendon strength but reduces cross-linkage - in English they will be stronger but more brittle.

chaaalieboy

"brotelligence" I like that. lol. So ur saying the EQ should cancel out the winny's limp noodle effects?

razg

I don't think you're going to have issues. The more experienced AAS users here will be quick to point out that **** issues are more of a possibility than a probability. 500mg/wk EQ should definitely keep you in reference range for test though.

Ruggerbugger

I've posted an article that sums up how various steroids affect ligaments and tendons.

Regarding winny increasing strength but making your joints brittle you need to be very careful about how you interpret terms like strength (which should be used in their scientific and engineering meanings, which are often quite different to what the general public think they mean). The joints do get thicker which increases the strength of the ligament as a STRUCTURE (it does not increase the strength of the ligament material but beacuse the ligament has more cross sectional area the whole thing ends up stronger). Strength is a measure of how much force is needed to deform (stretch in this case) a material a certain amount divided by the cross sectional area of the material. So to stretch you're ligaments a certain amount will require more force for a thickned winny joint compared to a normal one because the winny ligament is thicker. This might make winny sound like a good thing, but it isn't.

You described winny as making the joints brittle. I have seen this description of winny making brittle a lot but the term 'brittle' is being used completely incorrectly (even in journal papers, but in general medics no sweet F--K all about the mechanics of structures and materials). Ligaments in the body (assuming its alive!) will not fail in a brittle manner. I think what people mean when the use the term brittle is that the material exhibits a lower strain to failure (this is not the same as brittle). I.e. the ligament can't stretch as far before breaking. This is very bad for footballers, rugby players etc. becuase where a hit/tackle might have just stretched or lightly strained a normal ligament, a ligament modified by winny fould break....not a good thing. Anyway here is the article:


Originally posted by Queen Of The Damned:

This might help with some of your questionsWhile injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.

chaaalieboy

WOW. this article is fantastic, thanks.

razg

You prepared to back up your points with some references ruggerbugger? Otherwise all I see is conjecture.

Ruggerbugger

OK. Tracking down references is damn time consuming. I'll post relevant references as I find them (literature searches are seriously time consuming!) Anyway, here is a quote from the abstract of a paper that I found interesting:

'Stanozolol inhibited fibroblast growth factor (FGF)-stimulated DNA synthesis in both the skin and synovial fibroblasts, showing that both cell types were capable of responding to the compound.'

The paper is: The differential effects of stanozolol on human skin and synovial fibroblastsin vitro: DNA synthesis and receptor binding; Alison J. Ellis1 , Tim E. Cawston1 and Eleanor J. Mackie1; Rheumatology Research Unit, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Hills Road, Box 194, CB2 2QQ Cambridge, UK

So why is synovial fibroblast inhibition important? Well, synovial fibrobalsts are the things that repair and maintain your joints. Stop them from functioning and your joints won't be happy!