Which Fat Loss Should I Run

razg

Your maths is completely wrong. If you examine this link:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...ract/98/4/1379

You will notice that the (-1) is simply replacing a special character.

Additionally please note that a microgram is a millionth of a gram, as opposed to a milligram, which is a thousandth.

By the way, x^(-1) = 1/x - it is not x/10.

You'll see the original numbers were correct.

PScarb

i still believe that the conversion from rats to human dose is nearer 1000mcg's to 100mcg's

razg

Do you understand this? One microgram per kilogram? Thats 1mcg/kilo.

PScarb

well if this is the dose which in truth is near a normal dose for most guys why have their not been an influx of guys keeling over after using Clen??

Nick500

if this is true, this is very significant....

just to clear up in anybody's head what raz is talking about:

(µg). =0.000 001 g
µg = mcg


so, a millionth of a gram of clen per kilo is toxic (minimum)

so a 100kg bber, takes 100mcg of clen (very normal dose, in fact he would probably go higher), and this is toxic.

I think in regards to your question pscarb perhaps its not something which kills you or your heart quickly, but maybe wears it down? it could be possible your heart is weaker now (who knows if significantly), than if you ever used clen?

Interesting discussion here guys

Nick

razg

You're both right:

pscarb - it isn't something that's going to kill you right now, but the long run effects are significant, like LVH.

Nick - basically.

razg

By the way, i'm not trying to be a ****, and i'm not trying to preach the bible. We all know that the majority of bodybuilding drugs are harmful one way or another, but I think it's worthwhile that we all make sure to employ the lesser of two evils when possible. In this case, evidence leans towards ECA/Albuterol being significantly safer.

PScarb

raz i am not thinking that you are trying to preach mate as if this is true then it is significant...

One of the reasons i don't believe the numbers is that i have my heart checked twice a year by my Doc and i have never had any issues and when dieting i do go higher than 100mcg's so if this does damage your heart i would of though after at least 10yrs of using clen i would see something by now...

razg

I think the problem here is the method of testing. I do not believe that anything like a ECG/EKG scan is capable of detecting this. The study itsself used essentially visible dyes in these tissues to highlight the problems. If you consult the literature regarding heart attacks, apoptosis plays a part in the permanent damage caused there; it's essentially a attritive process. I'm not sure if this is common, but I believe long term bodybuilding definitely merits the use of an ACE inhibitor, as is the case for a multitude of conditions whereby heart health may be a concern.

If you have time, I think this is worth a read:

http://jcp.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/55/11/801

PScarb

but an ECG/EKG should show up some problems if the dose is that small to cause these issues especially seeing as i have been using clen for over 10 yrs do you not agree??