Which low androgen?

irf2112

Greetings all.

Hi, I'm new on the forum but have been training for many years. My diet, training, rest, sleep and supplementation are all ok. (Squat at 150kg for 20 reps - with good form, whilst bodyweight is 66kg - no juice as of yet).

Ive noticed AnT offer Winny and Anavar. Which one is worth a recommendation? I'm after a low androgen oral, for a 8 week cycle with dosages coming up and then going down. (Guidance from Mick Hart's guides). I was initially after andriol but can't find a reputatable supplier.
This may sound weak - but could somebody give me a comparison of say a supplement like tribilus and a low androgen like winny.

Also - Nolvadex isn't needed but how many mg of milk thistle would be sensible? Or is a different liver detoxifer recommended?


Thanks

Nick500

tribulus is probably about 1% of winny.



nolvadex is needed for PCT.

milk thistle or liv52 for liver detoxifier.

to be honest mick hart's guides are really out dated.

150kg 20 deep reps at 66kg is nice.

what do you expect to gain from doing steroids

Nick

Young Gun

Woooh Wooh woh.

PCT is needed ALWAYS (sorry bodyworks) no matter what particularly if you use winny.

Tapering makes no sense. Mick Hart sucks.

Use liv52 or Milk Thistle 100%. Particualrly if you use winny.

Not even worth a comparison between those two compounds.

Good squat btw.

Take it easy bud

LeeB

of those two id reccomed the winny!

irf2112

thanks for the advice guys. Winny it is! I'm 66kg now I'd like to get up to 72kg in a cycle or 2. I know it's not super gains, but I'd rather go for goals that are achievable. Ive found a 3000mg milk thistle product - guess I'll go for that.

I didn't realise Nolvadex was needed. Its just that stuff I've read on Winny states it doesn't turn into estrogen. Still, I think it's back to some research. Thanks for the help guys.

razg

I feel the need to point out winny is not low in the androgenic stakes, with its relation to DHT - if you don't want androgenic, go for Var.

Neil R

Depends what your comparing it to , mate!!
Compared to Anavar it is an androgen, but compared to Test, its a low androgen [Ratios around 1:6, andro:anabolic for Winny]

Also, as irf2112 pointed out Nolvadex is not needed coz neither stanozolol nor oxandrolone convert to estrogen. Infact with Oxandrolone no PCT would be needed (unless using excessively high doses) but at the standard dose of 30mg per day, it will have virtually no impact on the testes production of test. I would opt for an off the shelf test booster like S.A.N - Endotest or DesignerSupplements - Rebound XT, however Clomid would do as good a job at about a quarter of the price.

Also in regards to PCT, the lower androgen DHT derivatives require a different plan of attack as the side effects are different.
1:- Milk Thistle is a great idea, one I personnally adhere to regularly throughoutt the year regardless of on or off status. Although 3000mg a day is a wee bit overkill 1500-2000mg is normal. 3000mg would be more for the high dose heavy androgen cycles.
2:- As explained above their is no need for Nolvadex as there is no estrogen conversion, however, Saw Palmetto would be required to cover the DHT aspect and help keep your prostate healthy.

irf2112

Now I'm a little confused. You are referring to winny orals?

I contacted AnT's and was told Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) isn't required for a winny cycle.

razg

That's plain wrong, any endogenous hormones = shutdown. I'd like to see research to back up your POV here.

Neil R

Other than the fact its the ONLY AAS precribed to children.
[quote]
Before the Controlled Substances Act was passed to restrict the production, sale, and usage of anabolic steroids, Oxandrolone's characteristics lent itself well towards use by female athletes. Its specificity targeting the androgen receptor meant that, unlike many other steroids, it had not been reported to cause stunted growth in younger users, and at typical dosage rarely caused noticeable masculinising effects outside of stimulating muscle growth. In addition, Oxandrolone (17b-hydroxy-17a-methyl-2-oxa-5a-androstan-3-one) does not aromatise at any dosage, and is not easily metabolised into DHT or oestrogen. As such, a typical dose of 20-30 mg provided elevated androgen levels for up to eight hours. To increase effectiveness, bodybuilders typically "stacked" the drug with others such as Testosterone, further enhancing body mass gain.[quote]

[quote]Oxandrolone also has little effect on the body's own natural hormone production. The negative feedback was found to be very minor, meaning that during short term use no suppression of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH, start of natural testosterone production) was noted. This meant that whatever gains made, as little as they may have been, were very easily maintained post-cycle. So there was also no use for products like Clomid or Nolvadex in conjunction with oxandrolone consumption. The easy to maintain low gains would indicate a low binding to the androgen receptor. While not extremely high, it should actually be noted that it does have quite decent binding to the androgen receptor. But the reason for its mild effects is quite likely the low dose used. Rarely if ever are doses higher than 20 mg used on a daily basis. Either because of convenience or due to the high price. But comparing that the doses of other steroids this is remarkably low. So its only logical the gains and side-effects aren't particularly notable. [quote]


Just a couple for ya mate. 8)

However, it seems I was wrong about the need for even Clomid....whadda ya know