High GI carbs, insulin response...

**LeeB** · 15-10-2006, 07:21 PM

just a thought ive been toying with and would like a few opinions...

obviously ingesting high GI carbs causes an insulin spike in the body meaning the body will more effectively store nutrients!

my diet is pretty much spot on... no sugary carbs apart from when needed no bad fats etc... (ok this last weeks not been great lol)

my questions are:

how many grams of high GI carbs are needed to cause an insulin spike?

if i was to have som dextrose/maltodextrin with each of my meals this would obviously increase my overall daily calories... BUT would it also mean an insulin spike would be created in my body... leading to better storage/absorbtion of all the nutrients i was taking in with that meal?

what would people say are the advantages and disadvantages of this??... obviously im bulking and on cycle whilst doing this!

just with thinking about this, it seems a good solid idea... but am i missing something important here? obviously i wouldnt be doing this with a cheat meal! lol

**Bodyworks** · 15-10-2006, 08:38 PM

lee " if i was to have som dextrose/maltodextrin with each of my meals this would obviously increase my overall daily calories... BUT would it also mean an insulin spike would be created in my body... leading to better storage/absorbtion of all the nutrients i was taking in with that meal? "

The way i look at it, if you're gunna add sugars to your meals, which consist of 'clean' foods, you've just undone the point of eating those foods in the first place. Insulin release is dependant on the type of foods you eat, and the amount of food you eat. Adding sugar to your meals can do nothing but increase serum insulin levels. Is this a bad thing ? from a doctors and a dentists point of view, yes. For your purposes ? if i understand correctly, you are trying to bulk as much as poss. same here. you need calories. same here. loading on sugars will give you calories, but high insulin levels will promote storage of nutrients in fat cells as well as muscle cells. The way i look at it, who cares ? i'm not dieting yet, have no need to remain 'lean' and whilst i don't wanna turn into a blob offseason, i find that hard training prevents that scenario anyway. Just my opinion, but far too many guys eat too strictly offseason and turn up year after year looking no bigger. bottom line, if you wanna add the most muscle possible, eat big. often. i structure my diet around a lot of protein a lot of carbs, fast and slow releasing, and fats are found where they're found. i personally wouldn't opt for sweet potato and dextrose, i can think of many nicer tasting foods to be eating while i have the chance. but as long as you're not in a caloric DEFICIENCY, who cares.
get big, be happy. my moto.

cue 20 posts proving me wrong......

Nick500 · 15-10-2006, 09:15 PM

"get big, be happy. my moto. "

Exactly the attitude i like to hear people like yourself saying.

When i did my bulk last year, i put on 2 1/2 stone in 4 months. I got pretty fat. But the net result 1 year later is that i'm 16 lbs LBM higher. Other guys I train with didn't do the same and in the long run are no where near as big, in fact probably at a similar level to where they were.... they just couldn't handle getting fat in the first place :P

So i'm eating for england currently and bring on the gains. I try and keep it low GI but i'm eating quite a bit of fruit and have high GI PWO. White rice and potatoes occassionally, and generally eating lots and lots. Very high GL, medium GI for me.

Nick

razg · 15-10-2006, 11:53 PM

To get back to Lee's question.

Insulin sensitivity is determined mainly by the response produced by muscle, liver and adipose tissues to insulin. In each respective tissue the desired effects are glucose uptake, glucose storage, and fat storage.

Using high GI carbs is somewhat like using a short ester vs a long ester. Plasma insulin peaks very quickly and consequently drops, following response in insulin-sensitive tissues.

My understanding to your direct question is this: there is a "pecking order" with regards to insulin reaching target cells. PWO, muscle cells are highly sensitive to the effects of insulin and thus this is an ideal opportunity for refueling. However IMO it's a big mistake to take this as a reason to incorporate high GI carbs into one's diet.

Look at it this way: say you ingest 100g of dextrose, (these numbers are complete conjecture and are just for illustration) 50g may reach your muscles and saturate their short term ability to refuel. Consequently you have 50g of glucose kicking around; it's left for the liver and adipose tissues.

Now on the other hand, were you to ingest low GI carbs PWO, they are released into the bloodstream at a pretty slow rate - if this rate is lower or equal than the muscle's ability to store and consequently uptake more glucose, there is no reason for any spillover into liver or adipose tissues.

So, big spikes don't result in any more insulin, it's just the rate at which it is released/expressed. I do not believe there to be any benefits in your proposed idea.

I hope you find this useful.

**LeeB** · 16-10-2006, 09:13 AM

as with anything... two opposite points of view...

i think this is something which may need a "suck it and see" approach!

any more opinions guys?

Young Gun · 16-10-2006, 10:21 AM

The two situations PWO and any other time are entirely different and require different optimum nutrition IMO gotta agree with Raz. Whilst I completely see the value of getting as big as possible during the off season and can't argue with Bodyworks results I don't think thats the best way to consume excess calories.

Just my two cents.

Young Gun · 16-10-2006, 10:24 AM

The two situations PWO and any other time are entirely different and require different optimum nutrition IMO gotta agree with Raz. Whilst I completely see the value of getting as big as possible during the off season and can't argue with Bodyworks results I don't think thats the best way to consume excess calories.

Just my two cents.

**LeeB** · 16-10-2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young Gun

The two situations PWO and any other time are entirely different and require different optimum nutrition IMO gotta agree with Raz. Whilst I completely see the value of getting as big as possible during the off season and can't argue with Bodyworks results I don't think thats the best way to consume excess calories.

Just my two cents.

BUT overall in my diet as a whole.... the high GI carbs would be very low.. JUST enough to generate an insulin response!

Young Gun · 16-10-2006, 01:24 PM

Thats an interesting experiment but I think the 'insulin spike the body will more effectively store nutrients arguments' are far too generalised and pretty misleading. Essentially all I think the insulin response in a situation where muscle cell glucose is not depleted would do would be to cause storage in the liver and apidose tissue. Essentially reading bodyworks comments me him and Raz all agree what taking this approach would do lead to excess storage in places you don't want it. I'm not sure to what extent this would promote increased muscle mass over fat storage probebly depends on a lot of other factors such as metabolism that we cannot possibly predict.

Saying that I'm definitely up for seeing the results if you do try it. Give it a go bud

**Bodyworks** · 16-10-2006, 06:10 PM

I agree with everything posted above. My point was if you're gunna adopt the philosphy of adding sugars to bland food, why not just substitute that sugar for something that tastes nicer. Bread for example. However, i still believe that you gotta eat more calories than you're in all probability getting from eating a strictly 'clean' diet in order to make the most gains possible.

15-10-2006, 07:21 PM	#1 (permalink)
LeeB Moderator Musclechat Icon Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,925 Rep Power:	High GI carbs, insulin response... just a thought ive been toying with and would like a few opinions... obviously ingesting high GI carbs causes an insulin spike in the body meaning the body will more effectively store nutrients! my diet is pretty much spot on... no sugary carbs apart from when needed no bad fats etc... (ok this last weeks not been great lol) my questions are: how many grams of high GI carbs are needed to cause an insulin spike? if i was to have som dextrose/maltodextrin with each of my meals this would obviously increase my overall daily calories... BUT would it also mean an insulin spike would be created in my body... leading to better storage/absorbtion of all the nutrients i was taking in with that meal? what would people say are the advantages and disadvantages of this??... obviously im bulking and on cycle whilst doing this! just with thinking about this, it seems a good solid idea... but am i missing something important here? obviously i wouldnt be doing this with a cheat meal! lol ______________________ If your not a part of the greatest... you got to be the greatest yourself! For the best supplements: www.extremenutrition.co.uk

15-10-2006, 09:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
Nick500 Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Bristol Posts: 3,232 Rep Power:	"get big, be happy. my moto. " Exactly the attitude i like to hear people like yourself saying. When i did my bulk last year, i put on 2 1/2 stone in 4 months. I got pretty fat. But the net result 1 year later is that i'm 16 lbs LBM higher. Other guys I train with didn't do the same and in the long run are no where near as big, in fact probably at a similar level to where they were.... they just couldn't handle getting fat in the first place :P So i'm eating for england currently and bring on the gains. I try and keep it low GI but i'm eating quite a bit of fruit and have high GI PWO. White rice and potatoes occassionally, and generally eating lots and lots. Very high GL, medium GI for me. Nick ______________________ - Obsession is what lazy people call dedication -

16-10-2006, 09:13 AM	#5 (permalink)
LeeB Moderator Musclechat Icon Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,925 Rep Power:	as with anything... two opposite points of view... i think this is something which may need a "suck it and see" approach! any more opinions guys? ______________________ If your not a part of the greatest... you got to be the greatest yourself! For the best supplements: www.extremenutrition.co.uk

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15-10-2006, 08:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
Bodyworks Moderator Musclechat Icon Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: west yorkshire Posts: 977 Rep Power:	lee " if i was to have som dextrose/maltodextrin with each of my meals this would obviously increase my overall daily calories... BUT would it also mean an insulin spike would be created in my body... leading to better storage/absorbtion of all the nutrients i was taking in with that meal? " The way i look at it, if you're gunna add sugars to your meals, which consist of 'clean' foods, you've just undone the point of eating those foods in the first place. Insulin release is dependant on the type of foods you eat, and the amount of food you eat. Adding sugar to your meals can do nothing but increase serum insulin levels. Is this a bad thing ? from a doctors and a dentists point of view, yes. For your purposes ? if i understand correctly, you are trying to bulk as much as poss. same here. you need calories. same here. loading on sugars will give you calories, but high insulin levels will promote storage of nutrients in fat cells as well as muscle cells. The way i look at it, who cares ? i'm not dieting yet, have no need to remain 'lean' and whilst i don't wanna turn into a blob offseason, i find that hard training prevents that scenario anyway. Just my opinion, but far too many guys eat too strictly offseason and turn up year after year looking no bigger. bottom line, if you wanna add the most muscle possible, eat big. often. i structure my diet around a lot of protein a lot of carbs, fast and slow releasing, and fats are found where they're found. i personally wouldn't opt for sweet potato and dextrose, i can think of many nicer tasting foods to be eating while i have the chance. but as long as you're not in a caloric DEFICIENCY, who cares. get big, be happy. my moto. cue 20 posts proving me wrong......

15-10-2006, 11:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
razg Legend Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Birmingham/Bristol Posts: 887 Rep Power:	To get back to Lee's question. Insulin sensitivity is determined mainly by the response produced by muscle, liver and adipose tissues to insulin. In each respective tissue the desired effects are glucose uptake, glucose storage, and fat storage. Using high GI carbs is somewhat like using a short ester vs a long ester. Plasma insulin peaks very quickly and consequently drops, following response in insulin-sensitive tissues. My understanding to your direct question is this: there is a "pecking order" with regards to insulin reaching target cells. PWO, muscle cells are highly sensitive to the effects of insulin and thus this is an ideal opportunity for refueling. However IMO it's a big mistake to take this as a reason to incorporate high GI carbs into one's diet. Look at it this way: say you ingest 100g of dextrose, (these numbers are complete conjecture and are just for illustration) 50g may reach your muscles and saturate their short term ability to refuel. Consequently you have 50g of glucose kicking around; it's left for the liver and adipose tissues. Now on the other hand, were you to ingest low GI carbs PWO, they are released into the bloodstream at a pretty slow rate - if this rate is lower or equal than the muscle's ability to store and consequently uptake more glucose, there is no reason for any spillover into liver or adipose tissues. So, big spikes don't result in any more insulin, it's just the rate at which it is released/expressed. I do not believe there to be any benefits in your proposed idea. I hope you find this useful.

16-10-2006, 10:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
Young Gun Illuminati Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,539 Rep Power:	The two situations PWO and any other time are entirely different and require different optimum nutrition IMO gotta agree with Raz. Whilst I completely see the value of getting as big as possible during the off season and can't argue with Bodyworks results I don't think thats the best way to consume excess calories. Just my two cents.

16-10-2006, 10:24 AM	#7 (permalink)
Young Gun Illuminati Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,539 Rep Power:	The two situations PWO and any other time are entirely different and require different optimum nutrition IMO gotta agree with Raz. Whilst I completely see the value of getting as big as possible during the off season and can't argue with Bodyworks results I don't think thats the best way to consume excess calories. Just my two cents.

16-10-2006, 01:24 PM	#9 (permalink)
Young Gun Illuminati Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,539 Rep Power:	Thats an interesting experiment but I think the 'insulin spike the body will more effectively store nutrients arguments' are far too generalised and pretty misleading. Essentially all I think the insulin response in a situation where muscle cell glucose is not depleted would do would be to cause storage in the liver and apidose tissue. Essentially reading bodyworks comments me him and Raz all agree what taking this approach would do lead to excess storage in places you don't want it. I'm not sure to what extent this would promote increased muscle mass over fat storage probebly depends on a lot of other factors such as metabolism that we cannot possibly predict. Saying that I'm definitely up for seeing the results if you do try it. Give it a go bud

16-10-2006, 06:10 PM	#10 (permalink)
Bodyworks Moderator Musclechat Icon Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: west yorkshire Posts: 977 Rep Power:	I agree with everything posted above. My point was if you're gunna adopt the philosphy of adding sugars to bland food, why not just substitute that sugar for something that tastes nicer. Bread for example. However, i still believe that you gotta eat more calories than you're in all probability getting from eating a strictly 'clean' diet in order to make the most gains possible.