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11-07-2006, 06:01 PM
| #21 (permalink) |
| Under Construction  Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: bham Posts: 50 Rep Power:  |  indeed leg lock i am seeing your point. however i believe the essence of your saying is if I, a quite unexperienced practioner of kung fu was in a fight with an extremely experienced street fighter then i will lose.. which i will agree on because i wont lose but rather run my ass off! I only have a few experiences inwhich i had to fight, all of which the opponents were fairly larger as I am on the slim side and so under-estimated me. On the bus, in a club, on the street were some of the locations, and all of which did not expect to be floored within 1 minute! However, I have seen some of my fellow more experienced practioners, not to mention my sifu, take on 3 or 4 people at once. One of the times, 4 people surrounded me and my mate, all laughing and joking thinking they were gonna get our wallets and such that easy. But my mate had them all down within 2 minutes... literally dropped them like flies, believe it if you like, with the application of the phoenix fist. now as for the kung fu vs the experienced street fighter... that i would like to see! I havent as yet, but in essence its just one fighting art against the other  by the way 'somebody who can adapt to any style of figher'... someone is quoting bruce lee lol |
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12-07-2006, 10:32 AM
| #22 (permalink) |
| Making Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: essex Posts: 192 Rep Power:    | firstly i have no idea of anything bruce lee has ever said,like i said,i lost interest in all that stuff years ago and unfortunately my memory isnt good enough to remember anything he may have said  i think we are getting our wires crossed to be honest,the fighting you are talking about seems to be to defend yourself from street muggings and gangs of idiots on a bus...i am not talking about this i am talking about a fight against 1 man in a controlled environment where both men are there for the same reason and both wanting and having trained for the same thing...this is totally different to stopping yourself from being mugged,any fight on a bus/club etc will be stopped within 30 seconds...im talking about a fight where nobody is going to stop it,it may last 30 seconds it may last 30 minutes...fitness and conditioning play a major part in this type of fight...i think the one thing you seem to overlook is this..if your sifu or friends can finish a fight without rules so quickly and efficiently then why do they not compete in the ufc for example fair enough there are rules in cage fights but im sure if these people are that good they will overcome anybody put in front of them and thereby make themself rich???? do you not raise these questions in your own mind ? do you really think your sifu would beat the top no rules fighters around ? i think not ! the trouble is mate,with all due respect you sound a very impressionable lad,soon you will start to question things and the answers you come up with you must go with and not be blind to other styles of fighting just because it is not your favorite...your sifu or friends would NOT beat a well rounded experienced no rules fighter with kung fu alone in a no rules fight,FACT,and its a proven fact over years.you sound a keen lad so it would be a shame for you not to broaden your horizons,ive seen a lot of these kung fu/karate etc schools try to brainwash kids into thinking their way is the best way......time doesnt lie,combat sport itself has proved over time what works and what doesnt work,i wish you well....LL ______________________ im forever blowing bubbles pretty bubbles in the air they fly so high,nearly reach the sky then like my dreams they fade and die |
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12-07-2006, 10:19 PM
| #24 (permalink) |
| Making Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: essex Posts: 192 Rep Power: | group hug????????????? firstly...theres nobody who pees standing up that i want to hug ! secondly...theres no argument going on here,just a discussion about a subject i for one have great interest in,just a discussion thats all  ______________________ im forever blowing bubbles pretty bubbles in the air they fly so high,nearly reach the sky then like my dreams they fade and die |
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13-07-2006, 11:23 AM
| #26 (permalink) |
| Under Construction  Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NorthWestish Posts: 54 Rep Power:  | As have I! I have found this extremely interesting and have also been following it pretty much right through. Should my comment have offended this was definitely not the intention nor was it to appear flippant, it was merely a comment that in a face to face discussion I believe could have been something that anyone could have said and the conversation would have carried on but when put into text can often be interpreted in a number of different ways. Please take it in the good nature it was intended. The differences of opinion and the passion that each of you have for your chosen disciplines in this discussion has from my point of view been as someone relatively new to martials arts been very interesting. Also the difference in age and experience has made the whole subject matter for me very rounded and I can see valid points from both sides. Luckily I have never really been in a fight of any kind since I left school ( and i hope it stays that way) and I think in my original post I mentioned that now training in Kung Fu I have come to know my limitations. By this I meant that basically in many real life situations I would be buggered against an attack from most males purely due to the differences in physical strength. I know this by trying to block my partners attacks through play sparring and its like trying to block a bleeding baseball bat. I think this is maybe partly down to inexperience but it is also down to the perhaps unrealistic situation when we are training and sparring during training as when learning and practicing a technique with each other so many factors that would be present in a 'real' situation are either not present at all ie the arenaline surge from the flight or fight response or would be very different ie your opponant is not going to do things in a set and ordered manner that your training partner would use in training drills. One guy i particulary like training with is quite big and powerful and he gives me a bit of a hard time but in the nicest possible way by putting up resistance when we are sparring so that he doesn't just fall backwards or forwards if that was the direction i was supposed to be moving him.....he makes me realise that i have to be decisive and realistic in certains areas rather than filling me with false confidence by making me believe that I'm some kind of aging Hong Kong Fooey rather than The Janitor . But also in saying that there are more experienced lasses in my class that in 1 2 1 Kung Fu sparring would rag him all around the room as they have a much better technique than either myself or him.....there again with his superior strength he would just have to whack them once and they would be sparko and seeing twinkly stars for days.In my very humble opinion I see that no one particular art is perfect and from what I can gather the no rules fights are a combination of many disciplines where each fighter takes what works best for him and basically perfects for his build,stature, strength and speed his very own fighting style. Have i understood this correctly? Like I said I've found this discussion really interesting as it also lies in something I'm pretty passionate about......gimme training over handbags and makeup any day lol! LL I'll just have to keep practicing that stand up peeing lark to avoind a hug of you |
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13-07-2006, 09:22 PM
| #27 (permalink) |
| Under Construction Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: bham Posts: 50 Rep Power: | Yes this is definately a discussion I am very interested in what is said, that being the reason this is the first thread i see when i log onto musclechat! Indeed Leglock you raise another good point.. and bring the UFC into it which I watch quite often... matt hughes vs hoyce gracie was it yes those people train to beat the hell out of the oponent and eventually win by KO, submission and alike. Being well rounded fighters they learn hand to hand, ground and submission combat.Why my sifu doesnt enter the UFC... good question! yes kung fu is alot more self defence... all i'm saying is you shouldnt doubt what you see in movies. Its just like my dad saying they sped up bruce lee using his nunchaku's... but once i mastered them... he took it back. You have to see it for yourself. I keep going on about phoenix fist because once strengthened and mastered, it can seriously do some damage. As for why UFC people dont use it... its because they have gloves on i'm guessing! The power and technique my sifu and fellow mates show is amazing so i will never undermine that! However what you say is true, and T made the point also that no art is perfect. I havent just stuck to Wing chun, it is still my first choice of combat, but i have done a year of muay thai and seen some of the excellent attributes in that. On my list is to check out Ju-Jitsu, hopefulyl brazilian some aikido, some Eagle claw kung fu and Praying mantis kung fu although those are hard to find.Well rounded vs kung fu, you said fact that well rounded will come out on top. well i hope you base that on that you've seen it? I havent had the opportunity of seeing it, although i can see it going both ways. What if the kung fu practitioner manages to break a few ribs, paralyse an arm or so. But yes on the other hand, what if the well rounded fighter takes it to the ground and puts an armlock on to dislocate the shoulder.... interesting T is seems you have learned quite a lot! Remember theres still a long way to go! Once you become like some of the female sifu's, then you'll have the pleasure of knowing you could put bigger guys who have no experience straight to the floor! 'where each fighter takes what works best for him and basically perfects for his build,stature, strength and speed his very own fighting style' that is what makes a true martial artist. well said! |
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13-07-2006, 11:45 PM
| #28 (permalink) |
| Making Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: essex Posts: 192 Rep Power: | firstly...T,do not practise the standing pee it is a real turn off to see a woman squat with no fella underneath 1 thing i would like to say, and desperately trying not to sound disrespectful,but in my opinion,and to be honest,in any gym ive ever been,a woman simply has no place...now im all for a woman learning to defend herself,but,and its a huge BUT....like ive already said,martial arts and real fighting is a totally different thing...im not saying this from a male ego point of view im saying it from a realistic and honest point of view...i dont care who the woman is,there is no woman alive who can or would take down a half decent fighter and beat him in a no rules situation...the female body just simply isnt designed to take this kind of punishment...,i have seen some very strong capable women box with gloves on, and hats off to them if thats what gets their pulse racing,but a fight where the person who cannot get up is the loser is just not for women...i dont believe that women have the same pain threshold,i can hear you saying " yes but what about child birth " and i totally agree that when it comes to aches and colds and flu etc women make us look like a big girls blouse....but being punched hard in the face,being kneed with full force in the stomach,having an arm locked out,direct intense violence...the basic fighting principles a woman just doesnt possess. that urge to accept the pain and come back with everything you have type of attitude,i believe 99 per cent of women would quit on pain.....now ive experienced and seen many times men who will not quit in a fight on pain alone...now this is often not a nice sight and its certainly not a nice feeling,but it is the ultimate in respect amongst men who fight...you can be the most talented hard hitting fella in the world,have great submissions and be able to take the hardest shot...but none of these attributes come close to the basic quality of not quitting in a fight....you can learn any discipline,you can improve your body to be stronger in a fight,you can work on your ground game...the one thing you cannot change is your HEART or lack of....heart,guts,gameness,will to win call it what you want,but this attribute is the most honest and natural of all and is something you either have or you dont and if you dont you cant grow it,practise it or buy it...so when you talk about real fighting this attribute is something that needs thinking about in the whole context of a fight as opposed to a martial art..... i believe that 80 per cent of martial arts is for show,it looks impressive...but in a real situation(and by a real situation i mean an arranged fight against another man of equal weight with no rules) it doesnt,hasnt or never will be used.... nunchuka you mentioned the hughes/gracie fight and here is a great example of a man who only knew 1 way to fight....gracie shocked the fighting world when he came along in the early 90,s...people didnt understand his way of fighting and how he could beat much bigger opponents from the ground,hence came the popularity of BJJ....but,and again its a massive BUT...you need more than being good in 1 area to win a no rules fight..matt hughes proved this as have many people before him.....gracie back in the day was beating much bigger guys who knew nothing about fighting on the ground...hughes is a great example of a fighter who has evolved and is now a complete fighter after starting out life as a wrestler and nothing else....hughes easily beat gracie on the ground weighing the same weight...the fact is,a fighter must be well rounded to compete nowadays..myself im not really a lover of ufc/cage fights as i feel there are too many rules,they had to bring in rules to stop the sport being banned for being barbaric etc...but,it has taken a lot away from being able to call it a REAL FIGHT. as for your point about why your sifu doesnt enter ufc,or in fact any level of competition in the mma world i,ll tell you why,because he is not stupid !!!!these people brainwash others with their impressive LOOKING skills,in reality and in the real world of fighting,they know they simply couldnt compete...like i said im my first post,its nothing new....nunchuka you sound like you want to learn about combat and thats great....i would advise you to go round a few gyms,gyms that cater for cross training and MMA...talk to people,ask them questions that you have spoken about on here...it will not be long before your own intelligent brain will leave you with no other option than to get all this wing wang flying crane spider shit out of your head,and accept what REAL fighting is....im not being disrespectful when i say this i just believe these karate/kung fu schools etc have a lot to answer for ! you said do i base things i say on experience,and i will only say this....im not here to blow my own horn as i dont feel i have anything to prove,but the conclusions i have come to i have come to through being a mid 30,s man who has studied,practised,competed and trained others with all this stuff over a 20 year period,but compared to some i know nothing ! i have seen what works and what doesnt whether that be in a cage or in a field,whether that be a spur of the moment thing or dedicating and sacrificing 12 weeks of your life to build up for an event that will pay the bills for the next few months.... i,ll end this drivel now by repeating the very first thing i said on the subject....had a man ever squared up to me(or many of the lads ive been around over the years) with this stuff i would have rubbed my hands and had a little chuckle to myself before going to work on him,and yes that includes your sifu...i mean no disrespect to you or anyone else,but sometimes reality needs to be kept in front of what you find impressive to watch,sometimes,many times in fact,a real fight isnt particularly exciting to watch and that is just reality..no amount of fancy dragon phoenix crane or whatever else they try to brainwash you with will change what the game of fighting without rules is...and sometimes its just not all that exciting or impressive to watch as its simply not about being impressive or LOOKING good,its about getting the job done....all the best people....LL ______________________ im forever blowing bubbles pretty bubbles in the air they fly so high,nearly reach the sky then like my dreams they fade and die |
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16-07-2006, 12:38 AM
| #29 (permalink) |
| Under Construction Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: bham Posts: 50 Rep Power: | that was quite a read! yes there is definately a difference between a self defence situation and a one on one fight organised beforehand no rules as you said. but i still feel that there are elements from each that a good fighter should have. i definately agree about the will to win, the ability to have no limits and so it all takes, mind on one thing and one thing alone to win. but i still feel that the traditional kung fu has something to add, i mean it was implemented in the times of no guns of any sort and in times a war in the east. Some of the principles still apply to the basics of fighting. Some stuff is just for show and flashy with no actual benifit. I have took part in taekwondo and karate, and no offence intended to anyone who does these arts, but these are definately for show with no real fighting ability emphasised. i still feel though that kung fu's cannot be dismissed so easily. Wing Chun, Praying Mantis, Eagle Claw all i feel are not flashy wishy washy arts, call me unexperienced if you wish, but i can see for myself that some of the stuff works. The training is excessive, with emphasis on power (innerstrength which i believe in), sensitivity, and heavily damaging attacks. I feel that one can learn to use an opponents force against them in certain instances, expose weaknesses and exploit them. I believe in explosive power, also called inch power. This is just because of the way i have trained, and the fact i can punch harder than people with alot more muscle. Well i myself cant comment on my sifu vs a fighter like yourself as i have the upmost respect for both of you. However as said earlier i can never undermine my sifu as his skill and power shine, his knuckles have been so conditioned they are like rocks. and this isnt any brainwashing i truely believe he is an excellent fighter. Having said this, again i must say that i have already become aware that Kung Fu alone is not the best. I have always believed a true martial artist is one that explores all the arts available, devises a system that they in their heart feel right and implement it to beat their opponents. As said i have looked into Muay thai, and still wish to look at BJJ, aikido and street combat. So leglock, 20 years is very very impressive, thats more than my lifetime right now. May I ask what sort of things you have done to build up your knowledge of unarmed combat? Much respects. Nunchaku |
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