progress

devilsquest

well i been sat here thinkin??? o deer i hear you all saying
now i know i've made some good gains so far,BUT i know what im putting into my training and what noledge i have,so how far would i of got if i was trained by an experianced bodybuilder??have any of you thought about this?and what about supp's?it costs so much to take all the stuff you really need?do you think you would be further on if you could afford all the supp's you need?well rant mode of i guuess before i start ramblin any more

tahir

i think it would make a difference if u were trained by a experienced bodybuilder, becasue alot of them know wat they r talking about, from training to nutrition, u will get help, so i think it wud make a big difference,
about the supps if i had the money i wud buy more, at least in my head i have the satisfaction that im taking loads of supps lol

Nick500

i think being trained by a bodybuilder would be a huge boost because theres no way they would let you slack in your workout, and make sure you push yourself really hard. Being men of experience they would know the 'real deal' without bogging themselves down with too much science which is great in theory but rarely applies in real-life situations.

I often think, if i'd just had a can of tuna instead of each scoop of whey i've ever had, would it be better/worse/as good. I think better, but it would've been unattainable given time and effort, much easier to drink a tiny bit of protein than eat a **** load of sloppy cold wet fish... :P

Young Gun

Whether being trained by a pro would make a difference depends on you.

Yes of course taking every supplement if you could afford it would make a difference as however minimal a positive effect is still a positive effect.

'Being men of experience they would know the 'real deal' without bogging themselves down with too much science which is great in theory but rarely applies in real-life situations. '

This statement is a complete falsehood IMO. How many competing bodybuilders of past generations are as good as the bodybuilders of today. Why is this. This is due to advances in technique and approach (obviously also PES development). This advance has been brought on by scientific knowledge. The more we learn about the human body the more that information can be applied to our sport. The science behind how to take anabolics is as much a development as a development of the compounds themselves and the developments of nutrient timing and macronutrient ratio's and well as the effectiveness of different ways to train and there effectiveness are manifest.

From a guy who has lost a lot of weight from Atkins a diet based on scientific advances in the manipulation of the uses of food as energy sources in the body thats a pretty bold statement.

Thats as pointless a statement in my eyes as the guys who research stuff that doesnt apply to them.

The biggest guys I know in the gym and on the boards have very good research background where it affects them. The guys that fail are guys that pay no attention to science or do research for the sake of research and pedantically quote it all as experience. Ask a question to a huge guy about a variety of issues. I gurantee the response will usually be either very detailed or I have no idea because that's never and never will affect me.

Bottom line train eat sleep LEARN grow. Learn from both practical experience as well as scientific evidence where it applies to you. Neglect neither and your on to a winner. Neglect science and you risk sub optimal performance and wasted efforts on poor advice from people who used methods that maybe worked for them but will not work for you. Neglect experience of you and your body and you risk the same result.

Nuff said (We need the rant forum back)

Nick500

wasn't talking about anabolics at all, or even diet... i answered my question in relation to 'training' only...

in fact if we totally forget juiced up bodybuilders, my argument about experience counting is extremely relevant, as if you were trained by a pro natural bber who would obviously be huge anyway, you would learn hugely about how to really hit your muscles hard and train with intensity. my view is that training is still easily the most important part of the whole thing, second place being diet, 3rd place being supplements and gear or whatever.

I didn't stick to a strict atkins diet. in fact, all i did was cut carbs from my diet. When i lost weight and cut most effectively, it was when i didn't know anything about diet - i think there is an article on AST-SS on the MAX-OT training section that argues that the more you learn about your diet, the more you actually dont listen to your body. I think this is true to some extent.

Obviously i'm contradicting myself a bit here and i don't believe this die-hardedly, but this is a good discussion i like it. From personal experience, when i listen to my body and eat/train when/what i 'feel', then my results are best. In 5 years of training you pick up what your body responds to, the science is just backup and the 'reason' why things happen.

on the flip side, i have learnt a huge amount of information from sites such as this and from research, and i believe it has helped hugely, but i think the reliance upon strict scientific principles is pointless and arbitrary, when a lot of the time those scientific principles do not relate to your specific body type or metabolism for example. If you were training with an experienced bodybuilder they would most likely be able to:

(a) draw from scientific principles
(b) apply them to your specific body type
(c) correctly monitor your progress and adjust the routines accordingly.

Also, the hugest guy i've ever seen the gym decline pressed 3 reps of 220kg bench. This guy didn't look healthy at all, nor did he look slim. BUT he was ****ing strong.

In summary, all depends on your aims, goals and ambitions. If your main aim is to be hugely strong, then minute scientific principles like arguing over to take 40grams or 50grams of dextrose post workout would be pretty pointless, but if you are going for absolutely perfect 100% conditioning with perfect symmetry and are content-preparing, such details might be more important !!

PS tom you are my enemy number one lol

Young Gun

Yeah I agree being trained by a pro would be beneficial that wasn't really what I was getting at. My comments on how much it would benefit you were based on motivation. Some people would be extremly motivated others would not. There knowledge would obviously be beneficial particularly someone as meticulous as Jay Cutler for example. So that discount's half of what you wrote I agree you missed my point as I equally might have missed yours intially. I was more referring to the fact that you said science 'rarely applies.'

'on the flip side, i have learnt a huge amount of information from sites such as this and from research, and i believe it has helped hugely, but i think the reliance upon strict scientific principles is pointless and arbitrary, when a lot of the time those scientific principles do not relate to your specific body type or metabolism for example.'

'Bottom line train eat sleep LEARN grow. Learn from both practical experience as well as scientific evidence where it applies to you. Neglect neither and your on to a winner. Neglect science and you risk sub optimal performance and wasted efforts on poor advice from people who used methods that maybe worked for them but will not work for you. Neglect experience of you and your body and you risk the same result.'

So we agree then.

When I talk of huge guys I mean huge bodybuilders with less than 15% bf I could care less what powerlfiters do there is obviously less nutritional science to powerlifting from our P.O.V. I mean huge bodybuilders of who most I firmly believe would have a very strong scientific basis for what they do when they do where it applies to them. I doubt Jay Cutler knows the difference between the metabolism's of black and white atheltes but I bet sure as hel he knows almost to the calorie his own nutritional intake and when he needs to eat what macronutrients.

PS I love you too buddy

devilsquest

well u both missed my point u tits
as to all the research and science,that ant gonna help me one dam bit,,unlike u lot i did not bother with school and stuff as i was to busy workin my ass of full time,so if i start readin the sort of stuff u lot quoat all the time i just get a head ache and end up more confused than before,as to bein trained by a pro or just any guy whos got to a good size i know id be at least a couple of stone heaveyer than i am now !!!

devilsquest

and while im on about gettin lost can u answer this(in a none science way so i can under stand )
im lookin at supps and want to know which i should have?a weight gain or a whey shake?i ask as they seem preety much the same?or should i use both?

Nick500

weight gain contains a lot of carbs and fats, whereas whey protein is basically just protein, with a tiny bit of carbs and fats.

the weight gain is different from whey, so if you just want to put on mass and find that it is hard to eat enough, then weight gain powders is for you. Remember, you might put on quite a lot of fat using them though.

whey is generally seen as cleaner and wouldnt necessarily put on a lot of fat when used, because its basically just a protein source. You can combine it with things like oats and bananas to produce your own sort of weight gainer, so its flexible and can be turned into a weight gainer (so no real point in buying a weight gainer?).

So if you can be bothered to make your own mass/weight gainer shakes by adding good quality ingredients, like oats, bananas, natural peanut butter, for example, this will be much healthier than buying a weight gain shake, which will use other ingredients which aren't as good for you.

BUT making your own will take much longer and is more effort.

If you are thinking of going for a weight gained, try Extreme's performance mass.

Young Gun

No worries me and Nick were just having abit of a laugh really mate. Between the three of us (Me, Raz,Nick) we regularly disagree as to the value of resrearch. Me and Nick have been training the longest by far and are in better shape but Raz does more research than us both. NIck point blank refuses to accept anything Dorian Yates did can be wrong Raz reads study after study which are completely irrelevant to him. I'm somewhere in the middle. Was just a bit of banter really.

Anyways to get on with your question.

Supplements guranteed to have a positive effect on your training backed by both scientific and actual evidence are

Whey protein Isolate/Concentrate
BCAA's
EAA's
Creatine monohydrate
Flax Seed
EPA oils
Omega 3,6,9
Multi vitamins
Vitamin B
Vitamin B5,6,12, and complex
Taurine
Various other amino's
Co enzyme q 10

Then there are around 30 other supps I have used specific to problems which may have a beneficial effect. God knows how many there actually are

I have high BP on cycle for example

so I use hawthorne Berry
Potassium
Co q 10
Red Yeast Rice
(on the legal side of things)

There are then sups which have limited credibility

tribulus
ZMA
Glutamin
NO
anything by muscletech

what needs to be done is sieving out the shit so to speak, and deciding whats necessary.

Top Competitors take everything and I mean everything (Ronnies pill box is hilarious). Others may not take as much due to economic restriction.

OK to answer your last question. There are about 10 different types of protein available to buy as supplements that I can think of off the top of my head. On top of that there are countless amounts of blends of different percentages and varying carb sources among the endless amount of companies we have.

There are also goal specific protein types which usually primarily based on the rate of absorption as your needs here differ depending on the time of day you take it.

I'll try to outline the most popular forms for you

Whey protein Concentrate/Isolate - Very fast absorbing protein best used for PWO. Isolate is more expensive as it has a higher protein per 100g content and absorbs quicker.

MRP - Meal Replacement powder - Usually blends whey protein and other sources with varying carb sources. Whey Casein Soy etc with carb sources. The object is a sustained protein and nutrient release.

Casein - Usually used before bed - The body will not obtain any nutrients during sleep - Your gona go around 8 hours without protein. Casein is digested more slowly than other forms of protein and thus the body is deprived of protein for less time.

Weight Gainers - The object is to put on as much weight as possible. Usually this is just whaty is achieved but the weight is not muscle. Most weight gainers are a blend of proteins but usually whey and use sugars as part of a very high carb content. The high amounts of sugar lead to storage of excess apidose tissue (fat)

Hope that answers all your questions.