Training to failure?

MrSkinny · 11-03-2005, 03:03 PM

Little confused here!

I have seen a recurring theme on training recommendations, that is, to train to failure. However, is this meant to be on EVERY set of every exercise or just on the LAST set. For example: if I train to failue on every set, the reps are like 8, 5, 3, and on subsequent exercises, I have to drop the weight a lot (maybe cos my arms tire, dunno)

Also, what about 'drop sets' (probably I have the name wrong), whereby you pyramid down with any rest? Should I try that one the last set or maybe do 2 sets, pyramiding down each time. I tried that on that quads last week and boy did I feel it!! Though, it becomes really hard to finish the training session at such a high intensity.

Thanks to all in advance.

Garry_8472 · 11-03-2005, 03:23 PM

read the beginer routine i just re-posted it works believe me and if you have any questions just post them bud.

Anonymous · 15-03-2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSkinny

Little confused here!

I have seen a recurring theme on training recommendations, that is, to train to failure. However, is this meant to be on EVERY set of every exercise or just on the LAST set. For example: if I train to failue on every set, the reps are like 8, 5, 3, and on subsequent exercises, I have to drop the weight a lot (maybe cos my arms tire, dunno)

Also, what about 'drop sets' (probably I have the name wrong), whereby you pyramid down with any rest? Should I try that one the last set or maybe do 2 sets, pyramiding down each time. I tried that on that quads last week and boy did I feel it!! Though, it becomes really hard to finish the training session at such a high intensity.

Thanks to all in advance.

i recommend mixing it about as much as possible

i use pretty much the same exercises (my favourite mass builders which i feel recruit the most muscle fibers) and the heaviest weight possible week in week out, all the variety in my training comes from how i'm lifting... the intensity.. volume.. frequency.. TUT.. rest periods.. no. of reps.. sets.. etc

1 week i will go to failiure on every set, and beyond failiure on every last set of each exercise, the workout may only take my half as long as what it normally would as due to the increase in intensity i can decrease the volume (less sets)

another week i will lift 1-2 reps shy of failiure on all lifts apart from the last one, but the volume will go up by a couple of sets each exercise and rest times will be slightly shorter to compensate

i also like to throw in drop sets, supersets, static holds, negatives, superslow, and rest-pause prinicples into my workouts every blue moon, i find they certainly help as long as you don't over do them every week

so yeah, try and swtich it around each week, don't change too much though... just tweak things here and there, look at where your struggling and bump things up a bit, it is definately worth keeping a log book to record your workouts IMO

Anonymous · 15-03-2005, 04:47 PM

i personally never train to failure, but thats just crazy old me

MrSkinny · 15-03-2005, 05:54 PM

Good advice, cheers.

As I can only train 3 times a week I really like going beyond failure (work commitments) so need to push it hard. For example on the chest I would do:
Bench Press: 2 warm up, 3 failure sets (6-10 reps), last one beyond failure.
Inclined Dumbell press: 3 failure sets
Flys: 3 failure sets
Pec Dec: 2 beyond failure sets.
The pec dec on gets about 4 'drop downs' til about 30% of starting weight.

After this I am ready to collapse and arms feel like there hanging off me.

I try beyond failure sets on the quads/hamstrings. This REALLY BL##DY hurts.

I think your spot on regarding changing the routine as mines got a little stale. Got great gains at the start but slowed down now and seem to recover quite quickly on the chest (not the legs though). Also, blasting the legs leaves me so tired I struggle to concentrate hard on the back/biceps.
Noticed a marked improvement when I started taking creatine on beyond failure sets

I think its right for me as I have about 4-5 days between bodyparts. Just hope its the right thing to do, as it I can even feel anxious before the session where I do the legs. Its great on mentally tell yourself that the last couple of reps on the last failure set (i.e. 30/40% of the weight) is making the most difference as this is the point when I feel like crying like a sissy girl

Cheers,
Mr S

MrSkinny · 15-03-2005, 06:05 PM

Thats interesting Steve as I'm sure you guys are a lot bigger than me. I personally think that beyond failure gives a big increase in strength rather than size. Not sure that about this but I have skinny legs yet I can do more on the legs than nearly all the guys in the gym. Maybe its because a lot of dudes don't push there legs hard or cos I'm tall (6'3") I have an advantage. Who knows?

zx9rjas. · 15-03-2005, 11:59 PM

In fact, training to failure causes the body to adap. It damages the muscles and forces the body to adapt. Think of it as having a wall you have knocked down, so you rebuild it again but stronger, this process is repeated.

Not training to failure will increase your strength more so than growth. These are priciples adopted by athletes etc when training for strength or power.

I always train to failure, maybe not on every set but about 95% of them.

J

garry8472 · 17-03-2005, 12:07 PM

godfather how old are you, and how long you been training ? i'd guess late teens very early 20's, sounds like you swallowed a bodybuilding dictionary.

youv'e just got to much goin on you need to stick with basics more. there is one principal on which bodybuilding is based and that is if you push a muscle to work or lift more than it as capable of then that muscle will be brocken down and rebuild its self stronger so it is capable of the extra work load presented to it if you dont train to failiure you wont get the benefit simple as. you say you like to use just about every exercise variation know to man and that they "certainly help" but you said you use them once in a blue moon, you cant possibly claim they work based on such little and iregular use.

young lads start training, read all the available info on training and end up confused and then in the worst cases produce some sort of amalgamation of all the possible routines, i know i did this myself but it dont work. sort out a routine and stick to it your body needs time to adapt get used to the routine and then begin to advance if after 2 months you aint made any progress then change things round a little. godfathers advice may sound impressive with all the terminology but to anyone of any real experience it just sounds like a right hotch potch.

redspy · 30-03-2005, 02:10 AM

I take most of my sets to concentric failure as I believe it's the cornerstone of progressive overload. I keep my overall sets low to avoid overtraining and overtaxing the CNS. Every 2-3 weeks I throw in drop sets, supersets and rest-pause to ensure muscles don't get used to the load. Typically my workouts are completed with 60 minutes to keep intensity high.

There are some pro bodybuilders who never train to failure, but for me that doesn't work. Muscles need a good reason to grow as you're fighting your genetics. JMO.

MrSkinny · 30-03-2005, 11:15 AM

Whats concentric failure RedSpy.

I train to failure on every set of every exercise and include about 2 drop sets on each muscle goup. What do you think of this routine:
For example yesterdays routine was:

Chest
====
Bench 2 warm up, 3 failure sets
Incline Dumbells: 3 failure sets
Pec Dec: 2 drop sets (4 drops)
Cable Cross: 3 failure sets

Shoulders
======
shoulder raise: 1 warm up, 3 failure sets
Deltoid Raise: 3 failure sets
Upright row: 2 drop sets (4 sets drop)
Front Dumbell Raise: 3 failure sets

Triceps
=====
Seated Dips: 3 failue (well sort of)
push down (not sure what its called) 2 drop sets

Stomach - usual stuff

Takes about 1hr 20 minutes

If I'm totally honest the odd 'failure set' is a bit half hearted
After this I am totally knackered. Its taken me a long time to get to this stage and definitely need to be on creatine, but I find since I can only train 3 times a week, so about 4 to 5 days between each body part I need to totally exhaust myself. After about 2/3 months I am getting fatigued and need to scale back for a week or 2

The sets are keep to 8 to 10 which I think might be too low but the drop set accounts for about say 24 to 30 continuous reps I suppose!

Incidently I try drop sets on the legs for the quads and hamstrings, as much as I can but this just totally kills me. Its weird as I feel great before the chest/shoulder/triceps rountine but on the leg days I can get anxious cos I know its gonna hurt.

11-03-2005, 03:03 PM	#1 (permalink)
MrSkinny Making Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London Posts: 255 Rep Power:	Training to failure? Little confused here! I have seen a recurring theme on training recommendations, that is, to train to failure. However, is this meant to be on EVERY set of every exercise or just on the LAST set. For example: if I train to failue on every set, the reps are like 8, 5, 3, and on subsequent exercises, I have to drop the weight a lot (maybe cos my arms tire, dunno) Also, what about 'drop sets' (probably I have the name wrong), whereby you pyramid down with any rest? Should I try that one the last set or maybe do 2 sets, pyramiding down each time. I tried that on that quads last week and boy did I feel it!! Though, it becomes really hard to finish the training session at such a high intensity. Thanks to all in advance.

11-03-2005, 03:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
Garry_8472 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: north east Posts: 258 Rep Power:	read the beginer routine i just re-posted it works believe me and if you have any questions just post them bud. ______________________ If its not nailed down EAT it.

15-03-2005, 11:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
zx9rjas. Legend Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Southampton Posts: 697 Rep Power:	In fact, training to failure causes the body to adap. It damages the muscles and forces the body to adapt. Think of it as having a wall you have knocked down, so you rebuild it again but stronger, this process is repeated. Not training to failure will increase your strength more so than growth. These are priciples adopted by athletes etc when training for strength or power. I always train to failure, maybe not on every set but about 95% of them. J ______________________ 50% of Training is nutrition 50% of Training is not overtraining If you cant gain see the above.

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15-03-2005, 04:47 PM	#4 (permalink)
Anonymous Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 0 Rep Power:	i personally never train to failure, but thats just crazy old me

15-03-2005, 05:54 PM	#5 (permalink)
MrSkinny Making Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London Posts: 255 Rep Power:	Good advice, cheers. As I can only train 3 times a week I really like going beyond failure (work commitments) so need to push it hard. For example on the chest I would do: Bench Press: 2 warm up, 3 failure sets (6-10 reps), last one beyond failure. Inclined Dumbell press: 3 failure sets Flys: 3 failure sets Pec Dec: 2 beyond failure sets. The pec dec on gets about 4 'drop downs' til about 30% of starting weight. After this I am ready to collapse and arms feel like there hanging off me. I try beyond failure sets on the quads/hamstrings. This REALLY BL##DY hurts. I think your spot on regarding changing the routine as mines got a little stale. Got great gains at the start but slowed down now and seem to recover quite quickly on the chest (not the legs though). Also, blasting the legs leaves me so tired I struggle to concentrate hard on the back/biceps. Noticed a marked improvement when I started taking creatine on beyond failure sets I think its right for me as I have about 4-5 days between bodyparts. Just hope its the right thing to do, as it I can even feel anxious before the session where I do the legs. Its great on mentally tell yourself that the last couple of reps on the last failure set (i.e. 30/40% of the weight) is making the most difference as this is the point when I feel like crying like a sissy girl Cheers, Mr S

15-03-2005, 06:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
MrSkinny Making Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London Posts: 255 Rep Power:	Thats interesting Steve as I'm sure you guys are a lot bigger than me. I personally think that beyond failure gives a big increase in strength rather than size. Not sure that about this but I have skinny legs yet I can do more on the legs than nearly all the guys in the gym. Maybe its because a lot of dudes don't push there legs hard or cos I'm tall (6'3") I have an advantage. Who knows?

17-03-2005, 12:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
garry8472 Under Construction Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28 Rep Power:	godfather how old are you, and how long you been training ? i'd guess late teens very early 20's, sounds like you swallowed a bodybuilding dictionary. youv'e just got to much goin on you need to stick with basics more. there is one principal on which bodybuilding is based and that is if you push a muscle to work or lift more than it as capable of then that muscle will be brocken down and rebuild its self stronger so it is capable of the extra work load presented to it if you dont train to failiure you wont get the benefit simple as. you say you like to use just about every exercise variation know to man and that they "certainly help" but you said you use them once in a blue moon, you cant possibly claim they work based on such little and iregular use. young lads start training, read all the available info on training and end up confused and then in the worst cases produce some sort of amalgamation of all the possible routines, i know i did this myself but it dont work. sort out a routine and stick to it your body needs time to adapt get used to the routine and then begin to advance if after 2 months you aint made any progress then change things round a little. godfathers advice may sound impressive with all the terminology but to anyone of any real experience it just sounds like a right hotch potch.

30-03-2005, 02:10 AM	#9 (permalink)
redspy Making Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Way Out West Posts: 578 Rep Power:	I take most of my sets to concentric failure as I believe it's the cornerstone of progressive overload. I keep my overall sets low to avoid overtraining and overtaxing the CNS. Every 2-3 weeks I throw in drop sets, supersets and rest-pause to ensure muscles don't get used to the load. Typically my workouts are completed with 60 minutes to keep intensity high. There are some pro bodybuilders who never train to failure, but for me that doesn't work. Muscles need a good reason to grow as you're fighting your genetics. JMO.

30-03-2005, 11:15 AM	#10 (permalink)
MrSkinny Making Progress Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London Posts: 255 Rep Power:	Whats concentric failure RedSpy. I train to failure on every set of every exercise and include about 2 drop sets on each muscle goup. What do you think of this routine: For example yesterdays routine was: Chest ==== Bench 2 warm up, 3 failure sets Incline Dumbells: 3 failure sets Pec Dec: 2 drop sets (4 drops) Cable Cross: 3 failure sets Shoulders ====== shoulder raise: 1 warm up, 3 failure sets Deltoid Raise: 3 failure sets Upright row: 2 drop sets (4 sets drop) Front Dumbell Raise: 3 failure sets Triceps ===== Seated Dips: 3 failue (well sort of) push down (not sure what its called) 2 drop sets Stomach - usual stuff Takes about 1hr 20 minutes If I'm totally honest the odd 'failure set' is a bit half hearted After this I am totally knackered. Its taken me a long time to get to this stage and definitely need to be on creatine, but I find since I can only train 3 times a week, so about 4 to 5 days between each body part I need to totally exhaust myself. After about 2/3 months I am getting fatigued and need to scale back for a week or 2 The sets are keep to 8 to 10 which I think might be too low but the drop set accounts for about say 24 to 30 continuous reps I suppose! Incidently I try drop sets on the legs for the quads and hamstrings, as much as I can but this just totally kills me. Its weird as I feel great before the chest/shoulder/triceps rountine but on the leg days I can get anxious cos I know its gonna hurt.